Joining IDSA’s Board of Directors: Is it really only for senior career professionals?

Carlos del Rio: [00:00:01] Hi, I'm Carlos Del Rio, president of IDSA. Thank you for joining me for an episode of Let's Talk ID. Today I'm talking with Dr. Jasmine Marcelin, who is a fellow member of the IDSA board of directors. In fact, we're recording this episode during the March meeting of the board. Jasmine, thank you for joining me. You have served on the IDSA board of directors for about two and a half years, and this, in fact, is your last year of service. I want to get your thoughts about your time on the board, but I would like to first talk about your career path in infectious disease. Like me, you are an international medical graduate. What was your path that led you to training in the US?

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:00:37] Thanks for having me, Carlos. I am excited to have this conversation and sad that I am looking at the end of my time on the board. My pathway to infectious disease is one that was circuitous, starting on the beautiful island of Dominica in the West Indies. I knew I wanted to be a doctor when I was about eight years old, but I didn't know what infectious disease specialist was at that time. The biggest physician influence in my life, though, was a public health focused physician who also happened to be my primary doctor, Dr. Carissa Etienne. She was the one who helped me to decide on becoming a physician. And as I moved through my life from that point onwards, I made every decision to want to get myself closer to that goal. It wasn't until I was in residency in internal medicine that I realized that infectious disease was the specialty for me. And when I looked back at all of the experiences that I had since my childhood, when I was about ten, I did a science fair project that instead of doing the volcanoes that everybody else would do, I wanted to focus on how mosquito borne diseases were spread in Dominica and how to prevent TB from being spread. And like I said, I didn't know what infectious disease was back then, but when I was a second year internal medicine resident and trying to decide between infectious disease and Heme/Onc, I realized that the patients that really spoke to me were the ones that had infections, and I wanted to do something about treating them and helping to get them to a place where they could live their lives normally, despite whatever other conditions that they might have.

Carlos del Rio: [00:02:31] So you went to the Mayo Clinic to do your infectious disease fellowship, and then you moved to the University of Nebraska, where you're now in faculty. Tell us a little bit about your focus in infectious disease today.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:02:42] Today I am doing primarily general infectious disease. I spend all of my hospital inpatient time, which is about 8 to 10 weeks per year, on the infectious disease teaching service. And then currently I have about one half day per week with the ID fellows in the HIV clinic. Other than that, I spend a lot of my time with the residency program as an internal medicine associate program director. I spent some time with the medical school doing different educational pieces and doing lectures for the medical students. Teaching is a huge part of what I do. I definitely consider myself to be a clinician educator, Big C, Big E, and enjoy both of those aspects of my job.

Carlos del Rio: [00:03:31] It's clearly an area of infectious disease that people don't realize, but it's growing a lot, right? The clinician educator we know in many of our hospitals are places the physicians are frequently the best teachers. And now we have actually seen the clinician educator grow as a large group. I guess we'll have another podcast that we'll talk more about clinician educators. But clearly you are an example of the kind of successful clinician educators that we all aspire to see more.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:03:54] I couldn't see myself doing anything else. Honestly. I tell people this all the time, if I had to go to another place for a job and they told me you couldn't teach, I would not take that job.

Carlos del Rio: [00:04:05] So tell me a little bit about your early experiences with IDSA. How did you first learn about IDSA? How did you get involved? What made you interested in getting involved with the society?

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:04:14] So my first exposure to IDSA was as an internal medicine resident. I submitted an abstract for presentation and it got rejected. So that was my very first entry. But I realized that, you know, this was a society that was for infectious disease clinicians. And at that time I hadn't decided on infectious disease yet and was still debating on whether or not I should go into Heme/Onc for that short period of time. And during my fellowship I became more intimately acquainted with IDSA. My fellowship program provided us with memberships to IDSA or allowed us to be able to go to the IDWeek meeting. So I had a chance to see what the science was and all of those things. But I didn't really feel when I was a fellow, I don't really know where my place was in IDSA at that point. And it wasn't until my first faculty position at UNMC that I really started to feel what I could consider myself to be my professional home, where I could feel like I found my people. I've been reflecting on that a lot and why I felt the way that I did when I was in training versus once I became a faculty member. And I think part of the reason is that at the time when I was training, I honestly didn't know that there were other ID physicians out there that looked like me, that there was a whole cadre of people, a community, even though small, but that they existed. And so I used to wander around the IDWeek meetings kind of just feeling alone and not really sure of what my place was. But once I became faculty and I was very interested in the issues of diversity, equity and inclusion in the specialty and in the society itself, I was able to connect with a lot of different people. And so then suddenly IDSA kind of became that professional home, and I could find folks who were like me that were doing this kind of work and be able to connect with them.

Carlos del Rio: [00:06:23] Yeah, I mean, you really been an important advocate for diversity, equity and inclusion. So how does that fit into your involvement with IDSA

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:06:31] I wanted to be a part of an organization that walked the talk. It's easy for folks to pledge to do different things, but I wanted to know what was the driving force? Why do the organizations want to make the change that they want to do, and what are the actual initiatives that are in place? And so what allowed me to see that was my one of my very first interactions with the CEO, Chris Buskey, who was at the time that I was in first year faculty member. I think I had been on faculty at UNMC for maybe two months. He was doing his listening tours because he had just joined as a as the CEO at that time, and he stopped in Nebraska and I asked him some tough questions about what was IDSA's mission and vision as far as diversity, equity and inclusion in the society, and how are they going to make room for people like me to feel like like we belong in in IDSA. Totally did not know what to expect in terms of what the answer to that question was.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:07:42] But I was impressed by the fact that he took the question and he was able to give me some concrete examples of things that were already being done. And so some of the things that he talked about at that time was, you know, the Gender Disparity Task Force and some of the work that had been starting to be done by the program committee for IDWeek, etc. And then he gave me his card and said, you know, if you're interested, please reach out. And then he reached out to me to follow up. So that kind of was a signal to me that this was more than just a pledge or words. And so at that point, I said, okay, well, this is something that I want to invest my time in. I want the society to be not only a place where I feel like I belong, but I want to be able to recruit others into it and make it so that all of us have a new community here in IDSA.

Carlos del Rio: [00:08:34] You and I first met, I'm trying to recall, whether it was through Twitter or we met at a meeting many years ago, but I think we became very good friends on Twitter. And I would recommend to all our listeners that if you don't follow Jasmine, you do that. She's on Twitter as @DrJRmarcelin and please follow her. She's a great source of information and of many things ID-related. But you decided to throw your hat into the board and frequently people think the board is for more experienced people or mature people. What made you throw your hat in to be considered for the board and what were you thinking about it?

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:09:09] Well, I wanted to see somebody like me on the board. At the time, though years before that, I'm thinking about like during the times when I was a trainee and my early years on faculty, I wanted to see more representation of somebody that looked like me, somebody that had my perspectives, not just in terms of my race and ethnicity and my identification as a Black woman, but also I felt like there was an opportunity for just different perspectives from somebody who is more recently out of training. I was not sure if I was considering this too early in my career because of what you said, that perception that you had to kind of paid your dues in time and gray hair, so to speak. Although I do have quite a few now since the pandemic started, that maybe I was too young.

Carlos del Rio: [00:10:12] How many years out of fellowship?

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:10:13] Two, three years, I think out of fellowship. I definitely hesitated. I thought at the end of it, what's the worst that could happen? And I think I actually called you.

Carlos del Rio: [00:10:25] You did.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:10:26] To tell you like, Hey, I'm having this, you know, wild thought about applying to be on the board, should I wait? And you were just like, why? Why would you wait? And I was like, Well, but I'm like, I'm not. I didn't want to say that I'm not old enough. But I said I don't have enough experience or I'm too young out of fellowship or whatnot. And and you told me something that was really important. You said you have something very important to share and you have value to bring to the board of directors. And it doesn't matter when you graduated from fellowship, you have this value and people should hear what you have to say. And that really stuck with me. I think if perhaps if I had not had that conversation with you at that time, I might have convinced myself to wait a little bit longer, that I wasn't quite ready enough and I needed to do X, Y and Z things before I applied. And it was really intimidating to think about it. But I'm glad that I did because it has been a really enlightening experience for me being on the board of directors. I definitely had a lot of imposter syndrome going into it. Like I looked at the people, everybody else who was on the board, including those who had joined at the same time as me and some folks had had prior board experience. Some people were, you know, like division chiefs or vice chairs of the departments and things like that. And I was an assistant professor a couple years out of fellowship. At the end of the day, I agreed with you that I had a lot to say. And I felt like what I had to say was worth people listening to. And I wanted that chance.

Carlos del Rio: [00:12:14] Yes, I think it's really important to realize that if you have something to contribute, that contribution is going to be valued. And as you said, diversity, equity, inclusion as a core strategy for IDSA, I think you clearly had something to contribute. And with diversity, equity inclusion being a core strategy for IDSA and one that, you know, it's a road. We have a long way to go. I mean, we've made progress, but we have a long way to go to get there. We needed people like you on the board and more importantly, as you said, you had something to say. But we had something to hear. We had something to listen. You know, you look at the board and you say there weren't a lot of people like you on the board. So when you say, I wanted to see somebody like me on the board, well, the best person to be like you was actually you. And that to me is, I think, an important component. So you serve the board. You've been on the board now for two and a half years. Have you felt yourself heard? Have you have you felt that the time commitment you made has paid off? Have you been satisfied serving on the board? Tell us about your board experience.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:13:14] This has been such a fulfilling experience for me. First of all, there's a lot that I've learned about the organization, how things work, why things work, the way that they do, what sort of thoughtfulness and intention goes into decisions that are made or statements that are put out, or what goes into IDWeek or even just all of these things. Before coming on to the board, you knew that there was a lot of organization and talent and effort that goes into them. But for me personally, I didn't really have that sense of exactly how much. And then also allowing me to understand the full extent and breadth of the staff of IDSA. I mean, my gosh. As a member, I think people might not realize how the organization actually is run by these amazing staff members who are so helpful. And if you're kind of siloed in one particular interest area, you might be familiar with one staff member. But then being on the board, you get a sense of all of the things that have to happen and all of the people that need to be a part of this conversation in order for it to work. So I learned a tremendous amount. I definitely felt like my contributions were valued from day one. I felt like I could say things that were meaningful to me and that people would listen and that we would have good discussions.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:14:55] I learned part of the art of having really thoughtful disagreements on different issues and so forth, and being able to navigate how to communicate the way that I feel about certain things to a group of people in a way that I can get my point across and also receive other people's points of view, because this is a really a mixed bunch, a diverse group of individuals from different stages of their lives, different stages of their careers with different backgrounds. And I realized that the things that I brought to the table, while maybe clinically there might be some overlaps with some other folks, I was bringing some very unique experiences to the table and so were each of the other folks who were part of the board. And when you take a step back and think about the the board as a group, the realization that each of those members is really well selected by the Leadership Development Committee to support the strategic values and goals of the organization. But it's not one person that is doing all of that. The whole unit is doing that work. And so I've learned a lot and I felt really fulfilled throughout this time.

Carlos del Rio: [00:16:18] Well, I'm glad to hear that. Now, I'm going to ask you sort of a personal question. I mean, it's clearly a big time commitment.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:16:25] Yes.

Carlos del Rio: [00:16:25] And it's clearly challenging to balance your service on the board with your work, with being a mother with young kids. How do you do that?

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:16:36] So I knew it would be a time commitment, but it's important to kind of just be transparent with folks about like what does that time commitment actually mean? Yes, there's meetings. When the meetings occur, there's always time to try to make it so that it's not conflicting with work or other things. But my husband and I just kind of like put stuff on our calendar so that we know, okay, well, I have a meeting at this time, and so I can't help with dinner at this time. That's one thing. Some of the other commitments, like reviewing guidelines or having conversations about different issues or strategies and whatnot, that would take up time. And for me, I'm the type of personality that I'm very detailed. I like to really look through things. Things took time that maybe I did not anticipate that when I was going into it. But what I found was I was able to learn how to budget: this is board time, this is my work and this is my family. I start using a planner, especially in the last year or so, the planner has been really helpful. I viewed it as very important and essential service to my organization. Even though it is a time commitment, it is time I want to give. Actually, when I do my annual evaluations with my division chief, we always talk about like, where is the service and all of that stuff. And I always say in my evaluation, IDSA service time is very important to me. This is not something that I want to reduce, but it just means that I have to be strategic in how I do it and how I do some of the other things. Over time, I have been a lot better at the strategy with my no's and my yes's. You taught me some of that.

Carlos del Rio: [00:18:20] Yeah, I think you and I talked about that. It's really important to learn how to say no because a lot of times there's plenty of opportunities and you say yes and you have to really prioritize and you really have to decide what's in it for me and how how am I going to grow in this opportunity and how am I going to be... Basically what's in it for me? Besides the opportunity and some things we do without anything in it for me. We do it because we love it. But learning how to say no is one important strategy. I was going to ask you what advice you have for somebody considering applying for a position on the IDSA board. We already talked about some of those issues, but clearly saying no to other things is important if you're going to do this.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:18:59] Yeah, I was involved in a couple other committees. I was involved in some committees in other organizations, and some of them were like, I was very excited about those committees and even some leadership positions, and I had to kind of step back and say, okay, well, while I'm pursuing this leadership opportunity in IDSA, I need to step back from other organizations and, you know, circle back to it at some point. It's not like I'm giving up on my membership, but I can't be pursuing leadership tracks in multiple organizations at the same time. And that was hard for me because I'm the type of person that if I agree to do something, I'm going to do it. Even if it means that it's going to stress me out to do it. I needed to make that decision to step back from other things in order to pursue this so that I would still have enough left of myself for me and also for my family. That has been the most important centering piece for me - continuing to ask myself how much is left for my family? And so over these last several years, I have made very important decisions to forego things or, you know, so-called opportunities because I wanted to be with my family. I'm very excited. So the one thing that I will share with you, this is a small thing, but it makes me excited.

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:20:30] On Wednesday when I was traveling here for the meeting, I had a little bit of time in the morning and I had a couple of meetings. You know, the meetings are important meetings to attend, but also it's Read Across America week at my kids school. And I wanted to go be a mystery reader for him. He's six years old. So I did that instead of going to meetings. That was the most precious thing for me. Like, I'm almost tearing up because he was so excited that his dad and I came and that we read and he was so proud of us. And we read a book about being a doctor and what kind of doctors are there. And he was excited to share with his class that he knew what a radiologist was and that he knew what, you know, a different types of doctors were that we had read about in that book. I could have spent an hour and a half on a meeting or I could have done that, and I chose to do that. And so learning about how to make sure that there's still room for me is probably one of the most important leadership lessons that I have learned along this journey.

Carlos del Rio: [00:21:40] So you made a right choice?

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:21:41] Absolutely. No regrets.

Carlos del Rio: [00:21:44] You and I talked about being on the board, but now you I'm asking you to talk to one of our listeners who is maybe three out of four years out of fellowship, maybe in private practice, maybe in academia. They just saw the announcement of applying for leadership positions in the IDSA or the HIVMA board. What would you tell them? What piece of advice would you have for them?

Jasmine Marcelin: [00:22:04] If you're not sure if you are right for the position, ask yourself why not? These leadership positions are meant to represent our membership. If you see that yourself, who you represent, you are not seeing that on the board, then that might be an opportunity for you to see yourself there instead of, Oh, well, somebody like me should be on there. Or maybe that somebody is you. If you feel like you're too junior for it, you're not. I was the youngest member to be elected to the board of directors, but I don't have to stay that way. You could be younger than me. That would be pretty awesome. I hope that me going onto the board kind of when I was a little bit unsure of that particular aspect of it and realizing that the number of years since I finished fellowship had nothing to do with the actual value that I brought to the board was a really important learning point for me. And so people should know that being successful on the board is what you have to bring. It's not where you trained or where you're working or how old you are or how many years out of fellowship. It's what can you contribute to the future of infectious disease? And if you have something to contribute, then you should apply.

Carlos del Rio: [00:23:31] Well, I want to thank you for joining me today, and I want to personally thank you for your service to the society and in particular to the board of directors. It has been a pleasure to work with you on the board of directors and I'm sure that you're stepping off the board, but this is not your last round with IDSA. IDSA has learned the value of you as an asset to the organization and we will continue calling on you as we become a stronger and a better society. So thank you very much.